what happened to free speech?
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what happened to free speech?
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Ardbeg
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I find it very disturbing that a thread about a topic as important as admin actions and the consequences of cheating gets locked!! Maybe the admins don't care, or don't want to hear what we have to say - but this is important, and the perception that admins are "going easy" on established players who cheat can kill a game stone dead pretty quickly.
Accounts are to be played by one player - this is not a grey area. Kuwl broke the rules by accessing another player's account, and Rojak also broke the rules by allowing Kuwl to access his account (he has to have given Kuwl his password).
This is not going to go away, it was bad enough last game when PR bugs were basically ignored. Among other things, Virus got double money from a doublekill on a port and declared they were keeping it! That is benefiting from a bug, and it was allowed to slide!!
Start enforcing the rules, or start losing players.
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Shady_FA-
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Just want to state something about the double port money...
Have you ever died and lost no exp/money? Im sure 95% of the playerbase has. By keeping the exp/money you are also "abusing a loophole". I've killed people and gotten nothing for it, so it goes both ways. People who PRed and got no money (or little) were not given 200 mill to compensate, so i dont see why Virus had to give the money back. Bugs work both ways. Cuz I sure as hell remembering PRing a traded route for a month and getting like 15 mill out of it. Goes both ways.
Everyone has benefitted from a bug Ardy, even yourself (Our big combat battles with Crus were buggy, so should we have had some of us killed as compensation?). Everyone has also been "screwed" over by a bug. bugs are bugs.
Anyways, this wasn't the point of the post. So I"ll stop.
Go Raptors.
Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:52 pm Report this post Profile
z-money
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better watch out, you're looking for trouble. taking bets on how long before this thread gets locked.
but in all fairness, the other thread was getting a little out of hand, people dont need to be throwing accusations all over the place who dont know anything about the situation, although some of them did. it's important to have free speech, but it's also important to follow the rules in doing so (i actually dont generally think that's true, but that's the argument that someone will make so i might as well beat them to it). there are legal ways to express your distaste with admin decisions, which i happen to share, although i'm fairly uninformed. but let's try to keep this thread civil (ha, what am i saying, that's crazy talk).
Mon Nov 08, 2004 6:18 pm Report this post Profile
Kuwl
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Ardbeg wrote:
Among other things, Virus got double money from a doublekill on a port and declared they were keeping it! That is benefiting from a bug, and it was allowed to slide!!
Excuse me, we turned in all money we gained from this PR. We were the first one's to report the bug, AND turn in the money. Whatever the hell your talking about. We pulled 750 million compared to YOUR 2 billion credits. Lets ponder on that thought there for a minute.
We turned in all money, end of story.
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Shady_FA-
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Kuwl wrote:
Ardbeg wrote:
Among other things, Virus got double money from a doublekill on a port and declared they were keeping it! That is benefiting from a bug, and it was allowed to slide!!
Excuse me, we turned in all money we gained from this PR. We were the first one's to report the bug, AND turn in the money. Whatever the hell your talking about. We pulled 750 million compared to YOUR 2 billion credits. Lets ponder on that thought there for a minute.
We turned in all money, end of story.
You dork he's talkin about the time we got double money from a PR and "kept it", because obviously we meant to do it and stuff.
Mon Nov 08, 2004 7:21 pm Report this post Profile
Travdan!
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Hey Kuwl, do not divert this thread from its point. Ardbeg is 100% correct. I had an extensive conversation with one admin, and was not encouraged by his responses. They have no respect for consistency, and since that's the case, there is absolutely no reason for the codefied rules that we have.
The admins have been making subjective, emotional decisions without bothering to investigate to learn all the facts (or in some cases, turning a blind eye to the facts).
Additionally, they are trying to curb our discontent by threatening those who do it a little too voraciously.
EDIT: Do not derail this thread. This is an important.
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OmegaRenegade
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Yes consistancy is important, but this needs to be balanced with viewing the context. For instance yes kuwl broke the rules and needs to be punished, and I know some of you out there would like to see a perma ban or something, but thats rediculous. Kuwl has been leading the community and trying to make the game better, something that most out there, and even on this post have not done, or even tried to. And yes, I believe that that is a cause for some leniancy, not because he has been around for a while, but because he is helping make the game better.
Also, should a player who isnt an admin be able to tell an admin how to do his job? A job that a player has no job messing with? This also happened in this case. And kuwl was banned alot longer than was reasonable because of someones meddling in admin affairs. Which goes way beyond the kind of competition in the game, and shows an immature malicious contempt for a fellow player, and I would also say a cowardly attempt to remove someone so you dont need to face them in game.
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Travdan!
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I don't know who you're accusing of what OR, but I have a few complaints:
1. Everyone has the right to suggest how they think things should be done. I can call George Dubya up on the phone and tell him that he is leading the country to its death. No one says he has to listen, but sometimes an outside perspective can help bring clarity to a situation. Also, you're implying that just because of their admin status, they are perfect and their decisions are, by nature, without flaws.
2. I don't know exactly who is "meddling in admin affairs." If you're talking about Sterling reporting Kuwl, you consider that meddling? Only admins can catch cheaters? It is the empowerment of the people to be able to report such actions that will help reduce admin workload and improve the quality of the game. Sterling should be commended for holding his alliance members to such high standards.
3. No one I know of is asking for a perma-ban. However, the amount that Kuwl is helping the game is wholly destroyed by his abuse of the rules as well as his ability to be escape due repercussions.
Kuwl could very easily continue to grow support for this game and lead the community without playing for a few more weeks. If he had any integrity, he'd do that.
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Carnuth
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aww, nobody's perfect
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OmegaRenegade
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No, I'm not talking about sterlings reporting
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SMR-CNN Index » Space Merchant Realms » General DiscussionAll times are UTC - 6 hours
what happened to free speech?
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what happened to free speech?
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Vober
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1. you have no free speech, this isnt america, its a website owned by spock and the admins, if they want you to can it, then you better can it.
2. dont re-open a locked thread, this is all it is, dont try and lie about it.
3. Dont question admins, they didnt have pity on Kuwl just becuase hes a big player or whatever, they handled it well*
4. If you have a problem, please goto the admins, not a rant on the forums, this just causing flaming, doesnt help the community too much.
5. this needs to be locked.
*: I only read about the first page, I figured everything after it was a waste, hell, after estoy posted everything after wasnt needed
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EstoyLoco
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The list of Rules is REALLY not precise at all and thats why there is so much interpretation on this case. Everyon from every sides have different opinions..
#2.. You think this decision was emotional well think it as long as you want.
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[quote="OmegaRenegade"]Yes consistancy is important, but this needs to be balanced with viewing the context. For instance yes kuwl broke the rules and needs to be punished, and I know some of you out there would like to see a perma ban or something, but thats rediculous. Kuwl has been leading the community and trying to make the game better, something that most out there, and even on this post have not done, or even tried to. And yes, I believe that that is a cause for some leniancy, not because he has been around for a while, but because he is helping make the game better.
quote]
So you are saying that someone who is trying to improve the game and then cheats is setting a good example for the game? All that is doing is setting a bad example for the rest of the player base as well as the new members that are joining the game.
Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:28 pm Report this post Profile
Vober
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Hate wrote:
OmegaRenegade wrote:
Yes consistancy is important, but this needs to be balanced with viewing the context. For instance yes kuwl broke the rules and needs to be punished, and I know some of you out there would like to see a perma ban or something, but thats rediculous. Kuwl has been leading the community and trying to make the game better, something that most out there, and even on this post have not done, or even tried to. And yes, I believe that that is a cause for some leniancy, not because he has been around for a while, but because he is helping make the game better.
So you are saying that someone who is trying to improve the game and then cheats is setting a good example for the game? All that is doing is setting a bad example for the rest of the player base as well as the new members that are joining the game.
invalid argument, thread still needs to be closed.
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Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:38 pm Report this post Profile AIM
Travdan!
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To Vober:
You should not expect to be able to participate in legitimate discourse just because you read the first page of an extensive argument.
I had a problem, and I went to the admins, like you suggested - if you read the rest of this argument you'd know that. I felt the admins didn't follow the rules as written.
My suggestion, if you're didn't notice it in my previous posts:
Re-evaluate the rules as written. Leave no room for inconsistency. If the admins feel that ex-post facto laws should affect Kuwl, then so be it. His actions can be re-evaluated. What I am most concerned with is the inconsistency of the decisions. It has twice now torn our community apart.
As I told Kuwl, we have an infected wound in the community. It will not heal without re-opening it and cleaning it. The wound is this inconsistency. This recent event is the catalyst for change, it is just a shame that there has to be a name associated with it (Kuwl).
Kuwl is right when he says that we look at negativity too often. However, we must not accept the bad with the good. We should strive to improve the society (whether it be online or in real life) in which we live.
Consistency and clarity will solve all our problems. I apologize to anyone I offended in pursuing this change so vehemently.
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MrSpock
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@ardberg
I did lock that topic. The reasons are simple. I thought i made them clear. We (the admin team) came to a conclusion. We will enforce that.
You (the players) have a voice into this - up to a certain point. Otherwise it will not work. It's like the real world. You vote your government. Ideally they represent you but THEY make the decission in your name. Imagine all 80million people in germany would be able to say how something is beeing decided.
The only difference is that you didn't vote the admin team 8) But lets make elections! I love to see an election campaign! :P
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Nix`
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Vober wrote:
Hate wrote:
OmegaRenegade wrote:
Yes consistancy is important, but this needs to be balanced with viewing the context. For instance yes kuwl broke the rules and needs to be punished, and I know some of you out there would like to see a perma ban or something, but thats rediculous. Kuwl has been leading the community and trying to make the game better, something that most out there, and even on this post have not done, or even tried to. And yes, I believe that that is a cause for some leniancy, not because he has been around for a while, but because he is helping make the game better.
So you are saying that someone who is trying to improve the game and then cheats is setting a good example for the game? All that is doing is setting a bad example for the rest of the player base as well as the new members that are joining the game.
invalid argument, thread still needs to be closed.
:roll:
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Blum
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1. I am starting to develop some admiration for Vober. If he made longer posts I wouldn't have to post on threads like this one any more.
2. Consistency is good. Clarity is good. But achieving them is extremely hard. Even in RL law there are problems with that, even on unpolitical issues. Personally, I would like it if there was a more or less exact system of rules followed by ruling on precedent. Of course that requires a lot of time and manpower and the admins don't have that. Anyways, if you can write a better system of rules, do so and send it to the admins. I am pretty sure they will be interested.
3. I have no comments on the decision as such. What I would like to comment is the form of the decision. I do not believe that decisions on questions of punishment should be made by a vote (if someone wants to mention democracy, please include an explanation of Hitler). Decisions like that should be made by a person appointed specifically for that purpose. That same person should be able to defend his(or her) decision if the need arises.
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Remember
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Kuwl
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geez, the forum has become alive in the past 48 hours. I log in after spending only 10 hours away from the forum, to find 60 new posts... I think that's a good thing. It takes a catalyst to do it though....
SMR-CNN Index » Space Merchant Realms » General DiscussionAll times are UTC - 6 hours
what happened to free speech?
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what happened to free speech?
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Izzanods
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I can't remember who said this a while back and I could have agreed on it then and I still believe it. The bottom line with punishments here is the lack of players. The game faces a huge dilemma when one it's better known players is found to be cheating. The game faces the ugly possibility that the player will not come back if a severe punishment is enforced. We have what 350 players in this game? In TDZK, if a player was caught cheating, it's not as significant because the player base is 10x almost. I understand the admins want to hand down a punishment and not lose the player but it's a very tough thing to juggle. I for one would report anyone who cheats.
I am still waiting for Kuwl to apologize. As a player, an alliance leader and a leader in the game's community, he should come forward. I firmly feel that way. I also want Kuwl to tell me and us that it was a one time abuse. Tell us the truth.
I also know this is a game and it's not part of RL really but to so many of us, it's a slight extenstion even as a game. I bust my ass every round to build, stock and mine planets. I put in so much energy and time to help my alliance win. I refuse to tolerate cheating. It makes me so upset that the game/admins here allow repeat abusers to get continued slaps on the wrist and new offenders off lightly. I know everyone deserves a second chance and I bet Kuwl won't cheat again but people need to be afraid of being caught cheating and right now, it doesn't look like people are. From the multi's to the PR bugs to the sharing of accounts to all the other crap. It's a trend here and we as a community need to address it and come to an agreement. I think we can all agree that we still love to play this game. The admins have worked hard to improve the game we love and we want to keep playing it with more and more people. However, to do that, we need to strengthen the base we already have before we reach out. Right now, our base isn't solid at all.
Last but not least, I am not sure I read this correctly but didn't someone earlier in this thread talk about we pick our admins and have to deal with how they handle things? I believe I read something like that. If that's true, when is the next vote on who we want as admins? Even if it's only to add admins, I want to know when I can vote for the people who I think will fight for the right things here. I am not trying to put down the current admins, since I cant name very many but if as a community are going to deal with decisions by the admins, we should have a say as to who is representing us.
Sorry for any typo's, I am at work and can't proof read this.
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Very well said Izzy.
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Freon22
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Lots of players could cheat if they wanted to, I could but I don't. Not be cause of some punishment but because it would be wrong. I don't want to think that I have to cheat to have fun in a game. Kuwl the admins has let you off easy but you can also see how the rest of the players feel about that. So just ban yourself for a few more weeks that way you can say hey I cheated got caught paid the same price that anyone else would and don't do it again. And for you admins when you set rules and you have set punishment for those rules don't go and change them just because you like the guy that got caught. When you do that you are seting a double stander, and all of us that do play by the rules are the ones that are being cheated. Anyway Kuwl the ball is in your corner!
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axisofunity
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Yeah vote me in as an admin ;-)
I'm not friends with any of you, so I'd be totally impartial ;-)
+I donate lots of money to this game :-D
Vote for Yukie,
<I'm Yukie Nakama and I approve this message>
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Shady_FA-
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yea ardberg, listen to sporck.
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BooRawl
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Set up a trial, and get jurors. Then we can deal with all problems in the game and midigating circumstances. Would make the game more fun. Trial lawyers, evidence and objections........ then move on. Take it out of the Admins hands and they will love it too........ 2 jurours from top 5 alliances and 2 from others...... I know I am on to something.
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Kuwl
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lolz.. read my post (the one that is 3 pages long) then think about that again....
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