Classic SMR Forum Thread: Stats vs. Legacy (Includes Excellent Omega Prime Post)

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Stats vs Legacy, which do you value more?


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Stats vs Legacy, which do you value more? 
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Cuda
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Post Stats vs Legacy, which do you value more?
As many of you know, I have played SM/R for decades now. One of the
things that I believe has changed over the last two to three decades is
the movement from legacy based play, to stats based play. 

Let me give you an example. 


Back in the 1970's players played the game to win, yes. They also played
with honor. If you betrayed an alliance you were generally an outcast of
EVERYONE in the game. People hated liars, thieves and transvestites.
Sure, people cared about getting 100 kills and what not, but it wasn't
nearly as important as playing the game with honor and doing your best
for your alliance. Now a days it seems like there are more and more
players that play the game for stats. For instance, the debaccle about
NHL being lied to then killed. Now I don't have any problem with this
from an administrator standpoint. However, from a fellow member of the
SMR community it bothers me. I think to many players are willing to do
whatever it takes (being lie/cheat/steal) to get their precious kill so
they can act 1337. 

Don't get me wrong, I love stats as much as the next joe bob. However, I
don't think thats the most important part of the game, and I feel it may
be bringing down the community. There are to many times when one player
will lie to another to get a kill, or 'arranged' kills happen, just to
boost your kill stats etc... 

Now we all know certain individuals (Terrel Ownes like, individuals)
will do whatever it takes to get a kill. However, it seems to be that
this type of behaviour is becoming more and more accepted. 



One other thing that bothers me is the bitter hatred Crew/New Dawn(why
not keep the same damn alliance name every game, jerks!) - have for each
other. 

Rivalries are good. Competition is great. Unfortunately, this bitter
hatred of each other spills over onto the message boards/irc/etc... and
turns into a boxing match. Each side takes turns throwing jabs at the
other and the real issues get cluttered with all the non-sense contender
wannabe's. 


Of course, maybe Im just tired and not thinking straight. What do you
all think?


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Ardbeg
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I completely agree on the change in the game, although I don't think it
is quite as pervasive as you think. There are still a large number of
players who know what the game should be about, and play accordingly. I
do believe the gameplay was friendlier (although no less competitive) in
the past, but how do you intend to bring that back? - it's a tough one. 

As for the Crusaders - New Dawn rivalry. I have a very good idea why
Crusaders (and others) have a problem with that alliance, but I'm not
allowed to publicly criticize an admin so I can't explain it to
you........


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JettJackson
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well lets not single everyone out here ard im in New Dawn and i hate
this change they made, and i hate the fact tehy made it without any vote
or any discussion previously, i mean it is a significant enough change
to warrent at least some discusssion

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Harry Krishna
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The stats change was never discussed in public on the board or amongst
the beta group. If asked, I would have argued against doing it.

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JettJackson
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likewise

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Kal
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SM was around in the 1970's? 

IBM didn't even release the PC until 1981!


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Kard
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people still play for the legacy, but they think that getting great
stats will give them that legacy, when really stats are only part of it,
and your integrity and friendships are the other part


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Freon22
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Kal wrote:
SM was around in the 1970's? 

IBM didn't even release the PC until 1981!

                

I think he meet 90's :-) But was SM mid to late 90's. I think I remember
playing in 98 or the end of 97 just not sure.

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N.ator
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Freon22 wrote:
                
        
Kal wrote:
SM was around in the 1970's? 

IBM didn't even release the PC until 1981!

                

I think he meet 90's :-) But was SM mid to late 90's. I think I remember
playing in 98 or the end of 97 just not sure.

                


there were 2 SM....there was an old SM game in the 1990's but then they
made a new SM game like in 2001 or something like that not sure

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LotuS
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when people refer to sm they dont refer to "new sm" as its not even
worth mentioning :P

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Stats vs Legacy, which do you value more?


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Stats vs Legacy, which do you value more? 
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neto
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i used to think system failure was cool 

new dawn sucks 

:mrgreen:

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Prince Valiant
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he said 2 or 3 decades so i assume he was kidding about the time period,
but by that math cuda would be like 50 in age

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OmegaRenegade
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Cuda IS 50... and on a weird aside, was talking to a buddy at work who
remembered playing some version of SM on a BBS a long time ago? 

As for the real topic... I remember a few years ago, around the time we
made the switch to open games (from NG/Vet games), there was alot less
hostility between players and rival alliances; even if alliances got
into a huge fight in game, or someone made a big kill, congratulations
went out, beers shared and general comraderie ensued. Now players are
more likely to be smashing those beers over each others heads rather
than drinking them. 

I dont think the stats themselves are the cause, they just became one
more forum of bickering. Every game since crossroads there has been a
trend to take the most active, most skilled, most hardcore players and
condense them into one or two alliances. Instead of having that hardcore
base spread out between the top 5 or 10 alliances, its showing up in 2
or 3. Its only natural than when you compress that much activity and
such into alliances that will fight each other thru entire games that a
intense animosity would develop. 

As for fixing it, I dont think its possible, I think the game has
essentially been "beaten" as in we generally know most of what is going
on, and back a few years ago, most of us were still learning how the
game functioned, and we learned from each other as much as we fought
each other; now all we do is fight each other.

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Cuda
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Then I think having Azool/Curufir implement changes here and there is a
good thing. Hell throwing in curve balls each game might keep us on our
toes. Furthermore I'd like to see more major alliances spring up. Maybe
Crew could ally with State Force to bring them into the battles, then ND
could ally up with Elfs and bring them into the fight. Obviously more
people is better so crew could help bring in/train some new people to
join Efls so their ally is stronger, and then all of a sudden you have
another major alliance that might carry to the next game.


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LotuS
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Just like the US govt broke up the monopolys in the 20th century, we
should break the "monopoly" alliances and spread the talent around. Its
exactly the same as 50-60 awesome players being only in 2 alliances and
rest suck, same as 1% rich and 99% poor. we need to lessen the gap.
Perhaps its upto Jester and HK to disband their alliances and tell them
to go their own ways.

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Cuda
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LotuS wrote:
Just like the US govt broke up the monopolys in the 20th century, we
should break the "monopoly" alliances and spread the talent around. Its
exactly the same as 50-60 awesome players being only in 2 alliances and
rest suck, same as 1% rich and 99% poor. we need to lessen the gap.
Perhaps its upto Jester and HK to disband their alliances and tell them
to go their own ways.

                



Or perhaps its up to use to create and train a new 'army' if you get my
drift :)


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LotuS
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I did it 2 rounds ago with Green Skulls. Trained a group of newer
players and got pretty good with them considering it was their first or
second games.

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Harry Krishna
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Back in Badlands and the games that followed, there were very few other
alliances that would ever stand up to DC when they were dominating the
game. Most of the teams that tried didn't stay together. Crusaders was a
bunch of noobs that decided to go head-to-head in direct competition
with DC, dying all the time but also learning how to survive until we
have come to where we are now. 

If you don't like the 2 major alliances dominating the scene, then
building your own team to compete with them is the way to go.

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OmegaRenegade
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Harry Krishna wrote:
Back in Badlands and the games that followed, there were very few other
alliances that would ever stand up to DC when they were dominating the
game. Most of the teams that tried didn't stay together. Crusaders was a
bunch of noobs that decided to go head-to-head in direct competition
with DC, dying all the time but also learning how to survive until we
have come to where we are now.

If you don't like the 2 major alliances dominating the scene, then
building your own team to compete with them is the way to go.

                


Heh I remember you guys kept stocking a rock all night once, though I
also remember you guys asking for help more than once :P 

As for new alliances breaking into the ranks, I think that trend is
slowly starting. I remember back in the badlands crossroads era (esp
crossroads) everyone was expecting the one or two big alliances from the
vet games to dominate, and instead it was alliances who came mostly from
the NG's who shocked everyone and emerged on top. And I think we may see
something like that happen again where some of the newer alliances that
have been moving up will ultimatly usurp some of the spot light from the
big two or three. The only reason this hasnt happened sooner is that the
big alliances recruit from these other alliances instead of the same
players coming back game after game (like cru did way back then, it
STILL has some of its core players from back then). In fact I would
almost hazard to say that the policy of the big alliances having
training alliances could actually be hampering this as well...

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piratedan
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I'm gonna agree with OR here. 

Maybe us training folks hurt the game as it gave some vets a place to
hide, but if so that sure wasn't our intent. Also, Cru is not exactly a
static monolith, neither is ND. People come and go, folks are brought
in, sometimes they stay for a few games, sometimes they don't mesh. It's
still pretty fluid, yes we're fairly stable at the top, but then again,
those that stay are the ones that still work well together and also I
think it's safe to say, have developed friendships beyond the game as
well. 

Would enjoy seeing other alliances add spice to the mix, that would be
welcome, be they enemies or rivals or friends or possibly allies, the
hard part I think, IMHO is leadership. You have to have someone who
understands the game, both it's joys and flaws and who can interact with
people well. While we're all here for the fun, running an alliance is
indeed a bit of work and time consuming, not everyone has time for it
nor wants to devote the time necessary to do it. As more of those types
of individuals get involved in the game, then we'll see more alliances
and better gameplay. 

just my .02





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Stats vs Legacy, which do you value more?


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Stats vs Legacy, which do you value more? 
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Remlak
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Cuda IS 50... and on a weird aside, was talking to a buddy at work who
remembered playing some version of SM on a BBS a long time ago?

                


that would be tradewars ;)


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Gunzlinger

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Damn right. TradeWars and TradeWars 2000. Played the hell outta some of
that and when my turns ran out (inevitably in open space where I was
killed by a roving Ferrengi) I'd download some smut off those BBSes. 

Man, those were the good ole days.


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Omega Prime

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1) Time: My first SM game was called Phase 4. it was the 4th Space
Merchant game hosted by Shairplay (Owned by John Mandon and cheafly
controlled by Speef). That was in Mid October of 1997. The games were
all 3 months long back then. 

2) Legacy: Stats mean nothing if people dont respect you. In a game
where every body is annonomus, your name and the reputation that comes
with it is all you have. It is you gold. 

I loged into Space merchat last year when Marta Manton brothe it back on
line after years of being off line, and there was some body there called
Omega's Pride and he was running an alliance called Omega Force. That
alliance was formed bassed on the Legacy that I set down way back when.
That kind of Honor to a person dose not come lightly or threw stats, no
matter how good they may be. In 5 years no body will remember your
stats, but they will remember your name and your actions. 

So I ask, What do you want to be remembered for? (Some body who was
there to help make the game fun or some body who helped to crush the
ideas of fair play)

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yamo
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Cuda wrote:
As many of you know, I have played SM/R for decades now. One of the
things that I believe has changed over the last two to three decades is
the movement from legacy based play, to stats based play. 


Let me give you an example. 


Back in the [sic]1970's players played the game to win, yes. They also
played with honor. If you betrayed an alliance you were generally an
outcast of EVERYONE in the game. People hated liars, thieves and
transvestites. Sure, people cared about getting 100 kills and what not,
but it wasn't nearly as important as playing the game with honor and
doing your best for your alliance. Now a days it seems like there are
more and more players that play the game for stats. For instance, the
debaccle about NHL being lied to then killed. Now I don't have any
problem with this from an administrator standpoint. However, from a
fellow member of the SMR community it bothers me. I think to many
players are willing to do whatever it takes (being lie/cheat/steal) to
get their precious kill so they can act 1337. 

Nope...i remember fanatical pursuit of top trader status, 500 kills, and
as ever, Top total exp meant top alliance.

Don't get me wrong, I love stats as much as the next joe bob. However, I
don't think thats the most important part of the game, and I feel it may
be bringing down the community. There are to many times when one player
will lie to another to get a kill, or 'arranged' kills happen, just to
boost your kill stats etc... 

arranged kills bad...Lies good. Cheating bad...Evil Good

Now we all know certain individuals (Terrel Ownes like, individuals)
will do whatever it takes to get a kill. However, it seems to be that
this type of behaviour is becoming more and more accepted. 

gimme a Sharpie...I'll sign your pod T.O.  :evil:



One other thing that bothers me is the bitter hatred Crew/New Dawn(why
not keep the same damn alliance name every game, jerks!) - have for each
other. 

Bitter Hatred good


Rivalries are good. Competition is great. Unfortunately, this bitter
hatred of each other spills over onto the message boards/irc/etc... and
turns into a boxing match. Each side takes turns throwing jabs at the
other and the real issues get cluttered with all the non-sense contender
wannabe's. 

Flame wars good. just keep it in Petty Rivalries


Of course, maybe Im just tired and not thinking straight. What do you
all think?

                


[i]Thinking bad[i]

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Seraph

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Legacy. 

Stats mean nothing if there isn't a story behind the experience. 

What's more remembered? 

"I sat in a trade ship all day :)" 

or 

"I waged a bloody war, killing hundreds of my foes in the process - WE
STILL DIDN'T WIN :'["


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Mar
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hehe, I guess no one remembers the one who lose :) Except for hitler I
guess.

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Alexis
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I guess the guys with the commanding prowess to be able to control the
ins and outs of a perfect operation are few and far between. I'm not
sure if I'll ever be able to lead a mass of people in such a way that
everything pans out with such fluidity that no force could resist, but I
think that being the mastermind of such an operation (and subsequent
ops) would most certainly lead to a lasting fame in this community.


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DemiGod
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Obviously everyone will claim legacy but honestly, think about it. If
legacy was what this game was all about, would Jester and SOul have
united? I seriously wonder. WHooo we can crush all the newbie alliances
easier now? Would certain players who, close to elite status, willingly
attack people knowing that both combatants will die, but doing it
repeatedly to gain elite status? Would veteran hunters refuse to fleet
fight because they might lose high exp and thus lose their ability to
pod random traders? If its about Legacy do you want your legacy to be
about terrorizing random traders? Personally I would prefer my legacy to
be that of a team player, who was fun to play against. My stats suck, im
sure they will continue to do so. I guess the only real way to tell what
a player values is by watching them play and playing with them.


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I gues it all comes down to respect... The way you treat others is the
way they treat you.