Explanations on the loophole abuse etc.
Explanations on the loophole abuse etc.
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EstoyLoco
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Ookie here it goes.. I'm not representing the final thoughs on admin in this thread but i'm more giving informations about the status of all the thing... No opinions here.. more like up to date..
First of all, there was 3 alliances that got caught for abusing of that loophole, bug or whatever you want to call it.. We wont stick on the terms..
The Hollow
Crusader
Virus
Loophole was fixed on the 5th of september 2004 by Azool. Then of course there has been complaints about wht happens with the ones who cheated now they got load of money.. They were totally right complaining in my opinion!
Admins asked players who abused to report themselves and only Jester and Hadeslady sent an e-mail about it. They got bashed by the community etc.
Then that didn't fixed the problem of the money all over, because there was multiple alliances around! So Admins posted on web board that if alliances were reporting the aabuse before Admins find the money, they would not get banned due to at least trying what they have done.
All three alliances have reported the money and money has been taken out. Now you will wonder, but they hided some! Well they didn't as we checked PAs, AA, Anons, and bonds on planets...
So now the money side of the problem is fixed... Seems many players are claiming for bans for the players who abused..
I do respect that claim, its normal that when a player cheat, he finds himself punished.. But as you can see, members of all three alliances. Sadly we can't find out in database who PRed which port when. We see the PR etc, we have evidences that some players did it, but we can't only punish 3-4 players when maybe 10-12 did it. Thats not more fair at all and alliances will ask why did you ban us when they did it too etc...
It is not because Hades and Jester voiced themselves (and were only ones to do when buncha others did bust..) that they must be banned when the other bunch just go randomly around.
(now i dont wanna speak over what it will be)
I think if we get names from all 3 alliances of the players who abused, we could ban all of them for a period.
I think everyone can understand that to be fair, since there was 3 alliances involved, it is just fair that either all 3 alliances get their abusers banned or none of them? It is not a matter of balancing the game money wise, but a punishment here.
I hope this help you guys understand that of course they cheated, but things must be done in order. As an Admin i want the game to be fair, but now the "loophole damage" is fixed.. nobody has extra money, been checked, we can maybe ban the people that deserve but we need names from everywhere to be fully fair.
Hope that helps understanding the current position of the Admins on that matter and hope you guys can understand a bit more the facts.
Feel free to e-mail me more information on who etc. Leaders of these 3 alliances, feel free to contact any admin on that matter and talk to your members to see if you are ready to hand who abused :)
Have a good evening all
~EstoyLoco~
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Hate
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So the question is will everyone be honest and take their punishment or set bad examples for everyone else in the game.
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#4: Since their was confusion about this being a bug vs loophole there will not be any removal of funds or banning of any players. If you would like money removed from your AA please tell me(in the PM) and I will glady do it.
Ya, that should take care of that.
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LotuS
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Just so you guys know, Jester and HAdes got some balls admiting this. When NO ONE ELSE has! You all got some serious character flaws or something because I have no respect for someone who cant even stand up and admit their wrong. This is dominating the boards and people minds and is causing people to leave. Jester atleast admited it. So you better give him some creit even though hes guilty. And im looking at the guys in those alliances listed above. If you got any self respect or love of the game, you will turn yourselves in. Here or annonamyously, I dont care. But do the right thing. Admit it, take your licks, and lets get this thing behind us. Because if you dont This could go on for who knows how long and the collaterol damage it causes to you, your alliance, the game, your friendships is no ones fault but your own if you dont take this responsibility upon yourself. And I think further investigation should be given into the details of the PR's from the individual alliances. And anyone who gets implimented from logs or from alliance mates should be banned for twice as long as someone who turns themselves in.
On a whole, Thanks for the updates Estoy! Glad we can put the "rumors" of who did what to rest and all the faithful members of these alliances can learn the true face of their comrades.
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Yes, Estoy is doing a great job. I find it a little interesting that we were getting bashed by Crusaders AND Virus about it, when they both are indeed guilty. We've been harrassed for weeks, by people who are guilty, or more than guilty than us. I feel we need an apology from those alliances that accused us of doing the same thing in which they were guilty.
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While i was one of the ones upset about the cheating i am not in one of the alliances that cheated. I do however admire Jesters and Hadeslady's honesty in the matter and it is true you werent the only ones that abused it. You 2 were just the ones that brought it out in the open for everyone else.
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Jester-
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Oh, and since i "represent" smr and you took away my ops in SMR. Shouldn't you take away the GP from Harry Krishna, and remove Azool from Virus. It seems only fair to me. They are both representations of smr, and such should be dealt with like I was.
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Shady_FA-
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For the record, we did the PR bug, but didn't abuse it. There's a HUGE difference. I dare you guys to check our money records to try and prove us wrong.
Set the record straight stoy. We didnt abuse it. We tested to see if it still worked and reported it when we found out it did. And Azool deleted the money the day after we got the money (around 800mill). We abused nothing.
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Tyr
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It really does'nt matter why. If you did, you did. If you did'nt, you did not, that's the bottom line.
BUT, I must comment on the banning possibililty.
I do not believe that any player should be punished for a game detail that they are not responsibile for putting in the game.
If you do so, you are indeed tackling the wrong problem. This is a moral issue, and not a legal one.
One example is this:
Say there is a playground full of small children playing. A few adults arrive, and immediately begin throwing bags of candy all over the place. The adults quickly realize that this may have been a bad idea, since children can't resist candy.... and rush to warn the children that picking up and eating the candy will get them in big time trouble with the adults.
What do you think is going to happen? Where is the real problem here? Who is really to blame if anyone? This is a big problem in rl society today. It is much easier to go and tell people to not to do a bad thing, than it is to actually prevent them from doing so.
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EstoyLoco
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Ok well shady get your own fact straight.. an alliance doesn't need 11 prs in a row on the same port to test something out and doesn't need 800 millions worth of money to see "Ah there's a bug!" Thats if you need to test it before reporting others are doing it! So get your own fact straight plz before telling everyone to get theirs!
Virus did use the bug whatever the reason it was and put in major amount of money! We did check every Anon accounts in game, and we did not check Virus specificly to see if they had money hidden but many alliance Shady. And unless i dont have fact straight.. the one checking is a Virus member isn't he? Its nothing against Virus i'm stating the facts we found in database by multiple ways. Enjoy it or not!! Great if Virus handed the money but The Hollow and Crusader handed it also! I'm not the one claiming for bans the community is so get the community to not ask ban and tell them not to leave if we dont ban!!
If you think Virus didn't use the bug caus they handed money well it is the same for the other alliances.. so dont ask them to be banned more than Virus!
Isn't that logic?
EstoyLoco
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Explanations on the loophole abuse etc.
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Explanations on the loophole abuse etc.
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Warlock
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Intent.
This game is a work in progress. Regrettfully, not everything can be fixed instantly. Thus, the ruling on exploits.
Sometimes there is a function of the coding that is not meant to be there. Something missed or discoverd which the administration deems to be undesired and detrimental to the game. Thus it is labeled an exploit, and by statement of the admins, it is considered, in effect, removed from the game until it is resolved in the code. To go against this removal is to break the rules, thus, CHEATING. Cheating demands punishment. Why do you defend them? Or is there guilt on your soul as well?
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Warlock wrote:
Intent.
This game is a work in progress. Regrettfully, not everything can be fixed instantly. Thus, the ruling on exploits.
Sometimes there is a function of the coding that is not meant to be there. Something missed or discoverd which the administration deems to be undesired and detrimental to the game. Thus it is labeled an exploit, and by statement of the admins, it is considered, in effect, removed from the game until it is resolved in the code. To go against this removal is to break the rules, thus, CHEATING. Cheating demands punishment. Why do you defend them? Or is there guilt on your soul as well?
Get your facts straight warlock, it was MEANT to be coded that way. And they knew about it, that was already admitted.
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Hadeslady
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#4: Since their was confusion about this being a bug vs loophole there will not be any removal of funds or banning of any players. If you would like money removed from your AA please tell me(in the PM) and I will glady do it
If this was not the case then you are going back on your word. I wrote the letter and came forward to make things right. Jester and I have been treated as if ya'll wanted to do a public lynching and by alliances that were as guilty as us if not more. So, when does this end? Our alliance came forward when Azool first made the post, we didn't wait till the second post because we were afraid of getting caught. I turned us in before we got caught. So for anyone who wants to condem me, please feel free. I did the right thing and I am the one that must accept the consequences for this.
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Kuwl
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To clear things up:
I didn't even know about the 5x return from the game before when DC found out this bug. I was "out of the loop" as some would say.
Jester, you must have known, and therefor, you kept using it. It turned from a loophole that you should have told the admins into a "Hey, we get free money, lets keep doing it!" type of attitude.
I am for the banning, even if it means banning myself from the game. I wasn't on the weekend of this finding out. it should not have taken us 150 million credits to put into a port to find out it gives back 5x the amount. The only way to keep this crap from happening again is to serve a very severe punishment. Anything below 2 weeks ban I do not feel will be sufficient enough.
Crusaders pulled 2 billion dollars from the PRs (clearly knew about this bug and repeated the steps to gain money)
Virus pulled 750 million dollars from the PR (150 million "testing" is not acceptable)
TH pulled an undisclosed amount of money (clearly they knew about this loophole and repeated the steps to gain the money).
Admins. Make your decisions. In my case, I think you should ban Me, Jester, HK (the leaders of the alliances.)
I will take full responsibility, as will HK in these matters. Although I believe that it should be the Leaders + 1 (in the case of TH, Hadeslady knew full well that her alliance leader was abusing the bug). In my case, our member should have never used 150 million to find out the bug. A cool 10 million could have been used on a lvl 1 port. And in Crusaders sense, raising 2 billion dollars is a huge sum of money.
Everyone is to blame. We had our money erased, and everyone else followed suit. Do some sort of action against the playerbase, and be done with this rediculous argument
Do not get me wrong, I do not think we did anything wrong. We found the bug, we reported it, and it was fixed. What i do scorn at is how the admins have taken close to 2 weeks to finally realize that this is A FREAKEN HUGE PROBLEM. This should have been done swiftly. This problem should be over right now. I think once this ordeal is done, we get a new, more active admin force. If not 5 people, pick a couple that can spark new life in the admins (give the playerbase a reason to play, to know that someone is watching them, and correcting mistakes, kicking abusers (multi-account abusers) off the game, ect).
I want to say a 2 week ban should possibly be the maximum. Since this has been going on for 2 weeks, a 3 day ban at the most should be given... Showing backbone now is just acting on this matter.
Last edited by Kuwl on Fri Sep 17, 2004 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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EstoyLoco
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that famous #4 indeed is there.. Maybe it was a mistake who knows? Beyond that, the community brough back a older rule that is there in any game around the world, Fairplay. Cheating is not fair and thats another point. I think the way i brough things up it is not to admins to decide who has to be banned, but more to players themselves to face the consequences of their action.. If we have words from all 3 alliances, ban can be possible.. Up to then it is not my decision.
And even then.. I''m not speaking for all admins i repeat.. this is a possibility i brough.. I dont know what will happen then but it is something i propose. Up to know community seems to think it is the best option.
Hope everyone understand that this is a touchy situation for everyone.. the players implicated, the community and also the admins.. We're trying to handle it the best with the small amount info we have and the possibilities in front of us.. Now I let the community decide if there is a ban or not kinda ;)
Estoy
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Harry Krishna
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EstoyLoco wrote:
Hope everyone understand that this is a touchy situation for everyone.. the players implicated, the community and also the admins.. We're trying to handle it the best with the small amount info we have and the possibilities in front of us.. Now I let the community decide if there is a ban or not kinda ;)
Estoy
Estoy, letting the "community" decide has been the problem here from the beginning. If admins had stepped in sooner, this wouldn't have reached the fever pitch of mob mentality that it has.
I take responsiblility for my alliance's actions. Ban me, if that will satisfy everyone's thirst for blood and we can get on with the game.
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Hadeslady
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posted in error
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Alucard
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Good god people these are the same people that spilled the proverbial blood right next to you games back. In 1-2 games this will be forgotten, and Jester or Hades or HK or Kuwl or any of those in those 3 alliances will be right next to you shooting the hell outta whoever it says "Attack Trader" on. I myself have cheated to a degree in the past (lemme sit in sector and die so someone can see someone else!) and it seems to have been forgotten.... This game bad things happened...hell EVERY game it seems that way. Perhaps the Admins need to reform a team of impartial people that do NOT play the game or something. Or they need to just come with a hard line and actually inforce it....bottom line it is the admins that is at the core of this, not these players. The fact they came forward for it instead of being silent has got to say something for this. Now I don't play this incarnation of the game due to RL, and honestly I am glad for it. I don't know if I will come back. Instead of roasting these poor players who actually had the balls(sorry Hades...it's the only thing I can use to describe this lol) to do this confront the Admins about this. Until then give these threads a rest! Good god, think if the new players! 1/2 the threads on this General Discussion is about this damn bug and roasting of players and others quitting...that is NOT what this game needs. Grow up, let the admins decide.
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i second that great post.
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Kuwl
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Alucard, you must have skimmed through my message, because you sure as hell didn't see the part where I said the admins should have acted on it 2 weeks prior to this point in time.
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SMR-CNN Index » Space Merchant Realms » General DiscussionAll times are UTC - 6 hours
Explanations on the loophole abuse etc.
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Alucard
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And they should have. But players are quitting, and in these threads I just see people attacking others....and it's stupid! While deplorable, these same people stood by in games past the same people roasting them. The admins ARE at fault here now by thier stalling on a decision, no I didn't just skim by your post. But it continues that these 4(you included) are just beaten to death thread after thread. Enough is enough. Lock these things, whatever...just quit it. Here we have one admin presenting this to the "community to decide" That's really stupid, as the community is pretty obvious to their decision to start with. That gives way to more of these threads, which we don't need!! Admins are just that, ADMINS. They are supposed to be better and above the community. Whether they are or not has yet to be seen...and they are running outta time (and respect) in really not doing anything concrete.
I'm just saying for these threads to stop and players to catch their breath until the Admins decide. Enough flaming, enough attacking each other, enough of everything.
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Harry Krishna
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There's been way too much useless chatter by non-admins on this already, but since it's on such a public display, I'll say one more thing, so everyone in the game knows what happened on our end.
I heard the PR thing was still in the code. I tried it, made a lot of money. Obviously this was wrong, but it was done. So what did I do? I put the money into an anon account, and contacted Azool. He took care of it. We never used the money. End of story.
The admins have known about this the whole time, it's only just now coming out the way it is because they didn't act quickly to deal with it.
As I said, I'm responsible for my actions. Now I'll stop posting and await word from the Admins as to what they decide to do. That is what everyone should be doing. Tearing eachother down over it does no good.
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RandyOrsolo
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I see no reason for any alliance leaders who returned the money to be banned; if what they said is true, they found the loophole, reported it, and never used the money they got.
That's what DC did last game, and there was no talk of bans for them. So I don't see why the people who returned their money should be banned either.
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Let's get a couple of things clear here.
1) The Crusaders "abuse" was testing this, and the money plus a report went to Azool.
2) According to the information coming out, both Virus & TH abused this bug by doing it multiple times for substantial gains. You only need to do something once to test it. The extent of this abuse has clearly been extensive, and this round is tainted beyond repair IMO.
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Ard, Virus said they got their money deleted as well and I'm inclined to believe them on that.
In agreement with Hades here, let's give this a rest and give the admins a chance; they're only human.
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axisofunity
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Stop accusing Crusader's of 'abuse'. Not a single credit went to any of our players and none of us except HK and maybe a couple of others knew.
HK didn't cheat, giving Azool full details of all money is proof of that. He shouldn't take a ban at all.
Second, we've never done a PR since that. Again proof of not wanting to be seen as 'abusers'.
So why don't all you detracters FO.
Oh I get it, lets try and make decent alliances (Virus and Crusader's) look bad, get a life. We're better than you because we try hard.
HK, and all the Crusader's and Virus members rock the cazbah :-p
Last edited by axisofunity on Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Hadeslady
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Oh come on, if you read we didn't spend it either. The money was sitting right where it has been. If you want facts to be straight, then the fact that ya'll think we did it multiple times over and over is very incorrect. So, lets stop this soon ok guys.
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Anx-
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We did the same thing with our cash as HK said Crusaders did with theirs. Personally only ppl that need banned are the ones that did it after it was reported. We reported in within minutes. Why the need to test it again? If that cant be tested ppl may as well go twiddle their thumbs cause there is no otehr real way to check otehr than to take ppls words.....
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Masterblaster
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Jester- wrote:
Yes, Estoy is doing a great job. I find it a little interesting that we were getting bashed by Crusaders AND Virus about it, when they both are indeed guilty. We've been harrassed for weeks, by people who are guilty, or more than guilty than us. I feel we need an apology from those alliances that accused us of doing the same thing in which they were guilty.
:evil:
This is simply hilarious Jester and I dint know you were such a kind of low bastard. You're trying to raise the dust and spit your venom to turn this overcontrolled situation in your favour. Youre licking admins ass by saying "hey let me say you're doing a great job" after spending 2 bilions in ships podded, your judas 30 coins. Other alliances mentioned just tried to see if the bug was still up and reported it. We've been discussing this in #dc for weeks while counting TH numbers on players stats and way before all this big mess took place. You make me sick really and deeply. Youre dangerous for this community. You are the only one that has to be banned here and hopefully forever.
Apologies??? rofl that's the "cherry on the cake" My apologies goes to your alliance mates that havent been informed of your low strategy.
For you, dear Jester, I just deserved a spit on your face.
P.S. to Lotus, you wrote: "Just so you guys know, Jester and HAdes got some balls admiting this. When NO ONE ELSE has! You all got some serious character flaws or something because I have no respect for someone who cant even stand up and admit their wrong."
You just lost another good occasion to shut your big mouth up.
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Kuwl
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Ardbeg, how can u accuse us of doing multiple PR's when you brought off 2 billion credits?!? That sounds a little fishy.
We had 750 million compared to 2 billion.... hmmm.. Interesting?
As for substantial gains: I guess 750 million dollars is way bigger than 2 billion isn't it? And yes, we did something once to test it. I guess you are being a hypocrite right?
You had to use 400 million credits to find out it gave 2 billion back, we used 150 million credits to find out it gave 750 million back. Do you not see anything wrong with that argument there Ardbeg? You are trying to tell me that you only tested the bug once by putting in 400 million credits? To me, that tells me that you knew 98% that you would get that money back + some.
Some admin needs to lock this thread again. This is pointless. The same argument is said over and over. Locking it, then dealing with it through the admins will be fair and just.
SMR-CNN Index » Space Merchant Realms » General DiscussionAll times are UTC - 6 hours
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Mad
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that is not true jester hide that to his whole allince onlyadmitted to them and me after proof was given i have no respect for him and how he handled the whole thing he lied to me many times and rest of th whoever cheated need to be punished if it 1 person or 50 who got cuaght needs to pay that simple!
Last edited by Mad on Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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no hades u and jester came forward when me and the rest of th was in the dark about it u both are cowards and cheaters in my book i dont respect either of u most how u went about it and for him to make post about me leaving where was the admission there to the rest of th all i saw was more bashing of me and no admission?
Last edited by Mad on Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:20 am Report this post Profile
Mad
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:38 am
Posts: 15
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im sick of hearing we tested it and had no plans to use cash u knew was wrong and did it anways and cheated dont matter if u planned to use money or not its not ya place to test it ya job is to report then admin do it that a excuse im really getting sick of hearing maybe if those that did it just fessed up no excuses this we have closure alot easier
Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:24 am Report this post Profile
axisofunity
Beta Tester
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 10:16 am
Posts: 279
Location: England
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Lets leave it.
The admins can post when they want later...
The people who count know who cheated / didn't.
I'm going to go POD people.
1st Challenge: Win a DVD of your choice from the top 100 at Amazon.co.uk (up to £20) if you pod =p
:-)
Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:06 am Report this post Profile WWW
Shady_FA-
Newbie Spam Artist
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2003 2:24 pm
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Ardbeg you got some balls to accuse us of abusing the bug...Quit jumping to conclusions
Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:51 am Report this post Profile
seldum
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Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2002 11:01 pm
Posts: 845
Location: Wisconsin
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you know who I think should be banned?
everyone that is hear bickering over who did what, if you people would just open your eyes and read all 3 of the alliances in question didnt profit from it so accusing 1 person of this or that is simply ignorant
maybe if youre not in one of 3 alliances you have a right to say somethin on this maybe not tho but all the people in the branded alliances should have nothing to say about it
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Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:59 am Report this post Profile AIM
BooRawl
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Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2003 8:10 pm
Posts: 189
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I think this is getting old I am better than you. You cheated, no you cheated. Admin should handle this question period with the ones concerned. But I too admire Jester and HadesLady for standing up, and I don't think the everyone has stood up. Alot of hypocrits play this game, they should also be banned, maybe we should just take a look at ourselves and put a self imposed banned. I for one did not handle this the best way I could, and I got wrapped up in the discussions too. Enough is enough......
Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:29 pm Report this post Profile
Penglund
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Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:44 pm
Posts: 129
Location: Hastings, Nebraska
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I agree with Mad..TH members are totally in the dark about this. The only people that know about what is going on from what i know is Hades and Jester. Then again i havent been aroudn a whole lot since this game started. You can ask jester i have been bickering to him all game about how we still have money and such. But i asked repeatedly and have never been told the truth about this, as i am sure along with most if not all the rest of TH members. So do not take this out on TH members. If your gonna do something find out who knows about, who participated in it, who covered it up and then take the appropriate actions on them.
Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:31 pm Report this post Profile MSNM/WLM
Tyr
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Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:22 am
Posts: 47
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Any TH member in the dark about this whole scandle, must never read this board. This has pretty much been the main topic in our chat for a week.
I'm not looking for any excuses coming from TH.
We are no victims.
Some people could'nt handle even investigating the matter, and ran away. One, I was worried about, hoping they did'nt have a heartattack or something.
Anyway, that person threw fits left and right, spamming some of us like crazy. Rational? hardly. Now this person is bragging that they got somebody in trouble. HA! So worried about themselves eh?
We don't need to start piling on that 'gee, I kinda thought something was wrong but I forgot stuff' Please don't let me be in trouble kind of garbage.
I stand with them. Something happens to them, it happens to me.
Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:44 pm Report this post Profile
Kard
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Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2002 9:53 pm
Posts: 307
Location: CANADA
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Its this simple. If you ban the numerous players involved in this scandal, the game will die. The game already has so few players, and shows signs of loosing more players then it is gaining. Ban the players involved and you destroy the game. I say turn the other cheeck and log who the violators were. Their reputation is already tarnished, that will have to be enough unless you dont want to have smr to play anymore.
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Explanations on the loophole abuse etc.
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BooRawl
Quiet One
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2003 8:10 pm
Posts: 189
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Yep ban them ban me too.
Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:42 pm Report this post Profile
Trigek
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Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2002 2:16 pm
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Why does there have to be banning? Whats wrong with suspencions?
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From: MrSpock
To: Trigek
Subject: thanks
just wanted to say thanks for trying to control the situation on webboard. it's all the people around me who keep up their great work.
smr lives through you!
SPOCK
Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:47 pm Report this post Profile
Hate
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Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 8:39 pm
Posts: 392
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-=Kard=- wrote:
Its this simple. If you ban the numerous players involved in this scandal, the game will die. The game already has so few players, and shows signs of loosing more players then it is gaining. Ban the players involved and you destroy the game. I say turn the other cheeck and log who the violators were. Their reputation is already tarnished, that will have to be enough unless you dont want to have smr to play anymore.
And if they dont ban the cheaters they will lose even more poeple than what they would have to ban. So either way its a lose lose situation.
Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:57 pm Report this post Profile
Hate
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Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 8:39 pm
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Not to mention how hard alot of people were working on getting new members to join that now we have all stopped cause we lost faith in the game we all loved.
Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:58 pm Report this post Profile
Jester-
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Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:29 pm
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Location: Indianapolis, IN
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Mad wrote:
that is not true jester hide that to his whole allince onlyadmitted to them and me after proof was given i have no respect for him and how he handled the whole thing he lied to me many times and rest of th whoever cheated need to be punished if it 1 person or 50 who got cuaght needs to pay that simple!
We never lied to you, you were never there to be told anything to begin with. You just came in, complained, and left. That simple. So get your attitude straight.
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