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Preliminary thoughts from the oldie (a long read)
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Preliminary thoughts from the oldie (a long read)
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Creel
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Well its been four days since I returned to the SM universe (from the s&m universe??) and I do have a couple of observations to share. So far I've been a timid trading type but that will change.
1. The newbie/oldie distinction (fledgling and less)
Really pleased to see this inovation. If any of you recall me then you will know that I used to try and fight the good fight for the new player, protect the newbies and give them a chance to actually learn the game before merciously podding them. So hats off, I think this is a great inovation. Though for me, the ability to voluntarily turn it off, say at the half way point (eg at 30,000 trading) would be good.
2. Trading system in general
I left the game not long after the current system first came in. Before then, xp was the same no matter what you traded, the only advantage of luxuries etc was more dosh. I was a bit critical of the new system when it first came in but have to admit that it feels quite good in its current incarnation. My only comment that still stands from those days is that the $$$ differentional between wood and luxuries is too much. As a hunter then (and soon to be again :-) ) it is easy to focus on the high value routes and the banks as a source of kills and know you would get them (Chef sector 169 for instance). In defense of the traders, it is virtually impossible to make a living from wood and ore. I think the low value goods should be worth a bit more so that a trader has the option of going for those goods (less profit) but greater safety (less Creel's, Chef's etc hounding him/her) but still be able to make some sort of living(albeit a smaller one). As it stands now a trader is forced to great risk just to make ends meet, and the hunters rejoice.
3. Kindergarten alliances (This one will be a bit controversial)
A good hunter watches who is online and when. They can virtually tell you the days days news: names, sectors, ship type, alliance etc at the drop of the hat. I was a solo hunter and have been using my few trading days to discover the habits of those currently playing. Mostly what I've seen is a bunch of low level multiplayer ops (to use the in vogue expression), which is a nice way of saying kiddy gangs. I see that the top kill to death ratio is 40 and the next highest 17. I retired years ago with a ratio over 200 and 40 would probably have been ranked 50th or less. I see 'chef' as top xp ranked in a DC solo hunting in "Shanty Town" but very little other evidence of solo hunting. The game has changed, I accept that and welcome it but my worry is that the balance has tipped from in favour of the solo hunter in my day, too much toward the low level gang type strategy that I seem to be seeing today. I've only been back for a few days and what I see may not be a true reflection of things so I may comment of this again at a later date. Can anyone tell me who the second best solo hunter in 'Shanty Town' is?
That'll do for now. I look forward to seeing a few of you outside a pod retailer real soon :-)
Creel
Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:47 am Report this post Profile
Kahless_
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There is 1 group of solo hunters(though some will laugh at me calling us solo hunters) you will see appearing in the news alot every few games, just that we are engaged in a big alliance war this game and arnt allowed to hunt =)
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Creel
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Errrrr one group of solo hunters is a contradiction in terms.
I wrote about what I have seen in just a few days and admitted that it may not be a true reflection of SMR. So far I've seen evidence of one solo hunter, I do look forward to seeing and learning from more if they are out there. And maybe this old dog can come up with a new trick or two.
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Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:58 am Report this post Profile
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Heh - when i say group of solo hunters i mean an alliance of hunters who do most of their hunting solo (again i prolly get laughed at)
Have a look at stats from last round(Can find them on Play Game page) and look at Illusion. Thats the group i am talking about =) We were inactivish but we racked up plenty of kills hunting =)
But for the most part an allianceless solo hunter is a thing of the past cause ya, the game is getting more towards power in numbers. Get 3 times as many or don't fight is the name of the game now for alot of people.
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Infinity
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Orca, Smor and Erke camping together 1611 or 1594 last game wasn't really solo hunting :p
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Baalzamon
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you're right infinity, its not, but its definately protection while one or the other is offline. Take a look at middle grounds. Massive parking is here to stay, IMO.
Creel, solo hunting and trading is definately a thing of the past, its become much easier for people to play in alliances, and do what they wish while flying the alliance flag. There are people who hunt solo, but you wouldnt think that they do since they are in alliances.
Like Kah said, Illusion is the elite group of hunters, although some may argue that point, and the members of that alliance will generally be on the top for kills.
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Infinity
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Baalz... I'm not talking about mass parking in open mined space... you apparently don't play CS... camping - sitting in one place waiting for a kill.
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Harry Krishna
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There are two main factors going on here but I think they are both related to a small player base.
At the current number of active players, you just don't see as much variety of playing styles as in times past, thus the apparent absense of solo players. I wouldn't say solo hunting and solo trading are a thing of the past but it is rare to see the solo player who stands out from the crowd.
Secondly, there has been a surge over the last couple of years in team-oriented play: fleet fighting, galaxy building, alliance warefare. Again, not everyone is doing it, but with a group of 200 players, it probably seems like it.
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Creel... I played closer to your time then majority of players around (I first started in late 1998) and yeah the game has changed... I think this has todo with a lot of things..
1) The average player is better, making it harder to hunt. I'm not sure why, I suspect it has something todo with the fact that when shareplay went out of business, mostly only the "hardcore" players stuck with SMR..also there is less traffic of new players then before. The players are usually smarter making them harder to kill, and it also narrows the skill gap, where as I found in SM there were a few guys who destroyed everything and then a huge gap to everyone else...there is a lot of good players in SMR who keep the charts pretty even.
2) On SM you could watch peoples xp fluxuate on the CPL, indicating roughly what multiplier of route that they were trading in what ship, combine this with their race and you have a pretty good chance of being able to nail them. Now there is a delay on the CPL which does not allow this..
3) Forces, forces, forces.... Unless you're in an alliance, you can usually ( in most universes ) rule neutral galaxy trading out of the equation most of the time due to areas being mined up and the planet galaxies being claimed.
I think in general most players find it funner to op/don't have the time to sit online and hunt...That being said, having played in many alliances with guys like...Montana Mike, Galactic Grim Reaper, God Imes/God Justice, Dude Man, Rogue, Elvis Fett and even our beloved Ardbeg.. ( the bigger named hunters from the older generations ) I think some of our better hunters from this era are even a step up in their actual game knowledge as a whole and speed.
Guys like Orca, Smor (Chef), Sergei, Ghengis, Trigek (guess he was around back then to..) and LotuS really know how to find the kills.
Apparently though.. the oldies are making a comeback next game...I guess we'll see if I'm right ;-)
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Smor
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im insulted.
i got 51 kill this game, 2 of that kills were 2vs1 and second one just happened that me and my alliance mate got same ping at ca warp and rushed it. not meant to be that way.
there are some solo hunters still in game. after all i played in alliance without single hunter (with 6 guys total aof wich 2 inactive) till last weekend of this game...
baalzamon dont talk things like that when it is not truth.
edit: and truth is that this game i was hunting opers and pack hunters much more times then packing someone... as soon as i see some op, u will prolly see me around there waiting to get kill
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and as answer to questiong in 3)
orca is best hunter in game still. only he is playing alliance game this roun.
(oops is his name in shanty)
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Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:16 am Report this post Profile ICQ YIM
Creel
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Ok, seems there is still some hunters about, just haven't been too obvious to me yet. Good! Its what I enjoy too.
But I mentioned two other things in my original mail that no-ones commented on yet. Perhaps they are not worthy of comment.
1. The option of leaving newbieness and joining the big boys from the halfway point onwards eg at 30,000xp trading.
2. Lower grade goods should be worth a bit more, leave the top end luxuries the same value but increase each lower value commodity up. I think the gap between wood and luxuries has always been excessive. Make trading say level 2 goods exclusively a viable if not so profitable option.
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Smor
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Creel wrote:
Ok, seems there is still some hunters about, just haven't been too obvious to me yet. Good! Its what I enjoy too.
But I mentioned two other things in my original mail that no-ones commented on yet. Perhaps they are not worthy of comment.
1. The option of leaving newbieness and joining the big boys from the halfway point onwards eg at 30,000xp trading.
2. Lower grade goods should be worth a bit more, leave the top end luxuries the same value but increase each lower value commodity up. I think the gap between wood and luxuries has always been excessive. Make trading say level 2 goods exclusively a viable if not so profitable option.
Creel
1. just msg any admin any time u want and he will move u to vet galaxy
2. no it is good like it is. it is giving u advantage of trading high lvl goods and giving this game another aspect, alliances busting big ports so that they make high coeficient buyers in their galaxy to fast up money making. and u have to choose sometimes, do u want money or exp... if u would give good money for all goods then many will trade lvl1 goods. i spent half of game trading solo cause i was trading 1.2 fed route with lvl1 and lvl2 goods making almost no money. i dont want to do that in alliance, my alliance will need money from me more then exp.
it is good as it is as i see it (there are much more reassons too, im just to lazy to comment them all)
edit: i have to add, lvl1 goods are giviing u enough money as long as u not dying. u can make 2-3m every day on worst routes in universe. dont die 3-4 days and u have spare psf.
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Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:39 am Report this post Profile ICQ YIM
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Well, making low level goods more profitable would be an interesting idea, although I would prefer a different implementation. My suggestion would rather be that high level ports stop trading low level goods making low level goods more rare and thereby creating better low level routes.
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Quote:
edit: i have to add, lvl1 goods are giviing u enough money as long as u not dying. u can make 2-3m every day on worst routes in universe. dont die 3-4 days and u have spare psf.
For a hunter like your self Smor, these are quite sufficient. Say a perfect 3x text/mach gets you a lot of xp, and if you don't die, by the time you have enough xp to start hunting the way you do, you also have enough cash, probably for even two DCs. Then cloak over, get kills, get cash from kills, rinse and repeat :)
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Ability to turn off "italics" newbie protection half way is a good idea.
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Smor
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Blum wrote:
Well, making low level goods more profitable would be an interesting idea, although I would prefer a different implementation. My suggestion would rather be that high level ports stop trading low level goods making low level goods more rare and thereby creating better low level routes.
is it possible that noone can trade in this game?
why u need more good routes? it is stupid. it is why trading is interesting. u have to compromis betwien trading bad routes that are full and grea troutes that are dry all the tiem.
lets then have ports where u can open market for buying/selling one good, that way u can create your own route way u like it... then we all trade on best routes or something like that? STUPID?!
and this game is not about it. things like that are proposing guys that just dont know how to trade so they need help and hope that they will get it by changing game...
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Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:49 am Report this post Profile ICQ YIM
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Now, now Smor. While I completely support all mistrust for change (that's my knee jerk reaction as well), I believe you are a bit off this time.
I believe that my suggestion is more likely to make trading harder than easier.
Imagine: you find a nice long low level route. You trade it making nice xp, then it upgrades, not only ruining someone else's luxury route, but also disappearing itself. That gives some very interesting route management....
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Creel
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If you say doubled the base price of level 1 goods and increased level 2 goods by say 25-50%, you would in no way be making level 3 goods any less profitable or not the favoured option for traders.
But I like Blums suggestion too, reducing the frequency of level 1 and 2 goods availability at ports. Might have a similar effect to my suggestion.
Heres what I see in the galaxy I'm trading in at present.
1. The top 6 trade routes for profit have two ports that feature in each. In a galaxy of 225 sectors a hunter need only watch those 2 plus maybe the nearest bank sector. So 99% of the galaxy is virtually wasted and seldom populated. And what a surprise: the most kills in this galaxy by a long way occur at one of those two ports. Traders congregate, hunters have easy pickings. Blums' or my suggestion might just spread that load a little bit and make hunting a bit more rewarding, fun and challenging.
2. The top two XP focused trade routes in this galaxy both use the same two ports. The third best is a distant third so not really worth going for. Ditto with point one above, a hunter need only sit at one port to pick off the traders.
I love solo hunting and matching wits with a skilled trader who is doing his level best to avoid me. But just sitting quietly at the one sector I am almost 100% sure the trader will call at is not a good test of the hunter or the traders skills and probably tedious for both.
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We went through a lot of problems in the game with having too much cash around..I think we finally have it at a perfect level and playing with goods would mess that up a bit.
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Personaly I think it's all about trade time.
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Smor
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i agree with siege.
plus things u said it blum, as soon as port upgrade what will u do? since u dont have low and high lvl goods at same port?
soon u would have only high lvl goods ports?
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Creel
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Siege, I've been playing for a week and almost have enough money for an FU. Is that your idea of balanced cash? Maybe all goods should be reduced in value. Perhaps money is still too easy to come by and hence why the game is so full of kiddy gang bangers. If a warship is earned too easily then reckless unimaginative combat is likely to follow and who cares if they die, just do it again. The game loses when death has no real cost.
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Smor wrote:
i agree with siege.
plus things u said it blum, as soon as port upgrade what will u do? since u dont have low and high lvl goods at same port?
soon u would have only high lvl goods ports?
Raid them?
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Money is far to easy to get, hance in the first days of any game (even slow, we can kit out almost an entire alliance with IST's this is wrong and shouldn't be possible after just a couple of hours of game time.
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Smor
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Blum wrote:
Smor wrote:
i agree with siege.
plus things u said it blum, as soon as port upgrade what will u do? since u dont have low and high lvl goods at same port?
soon u would have only high lvl goods ports?
Raid them?
make new game blum since u started it obviously.
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Creel: Keep in mind, this is the end of the game. you have no one to share your route with you. At the begining of the game there is alot more competition for trade routes and money is alot slower coming in as alot of people are forced to trade low cash routes to not waste their turns.
Any well organized alliance can get alot of IST's on the first day, and I have never seen an entire 25+ man alliance get all IST's in first day, nor in first 3 days for that matter. The slow game that just strated had a fluke human route with 10k cash off the get go, Dead presidents capitolized on it and got maybe 10 IST's within first 48 hours. But that is because of 1 giant 2500 sector galaxy which is hard to plan for.
I dont think there is to much money in the game. we have to remember the little new player..... I know it is hard for Suckas and probably crusaders to keep afloat with the war they wage, which is almost continious. And I cant imagine many other alliances reaching the activity or calibur of alliance competition these two have without the money these two have. There are exeptions, dont get me wrong, but for the most part most alliances are not overflowing with buckets of cash so much that dying doesent matter. I think it is pretty balanced the way it is now.
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I would have to concur in agreement with the delegate from Chicago.
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back when there was more money than there is now!
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If an alliance is driven, they could monopolize the best routes and get everyone into ISTs in 3 days. More accurately, I think within 7 days most of the big alliances have made the ship upgrades they want to have.
I don't think there is "too much money" in the game. I think the opportunity is there to make a ton of it, but that shouldn't mean that the smaller alliances and solo players should have to work harder than they are now to make a living.
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Creel.. YOU could buy an FU.. but you don't have an alliance to fund. Alliances that are losing ships in mass ops (over 50 ships lost between Crus/Suckas in one battle yesterday) building planets, maintaining mine fields (mines are more expensive then they used to be) etc. need more cash..
Also like LotuS said..trading in racials at this point in the game is relatively easy ( especially when in italics ).
If an entire alliance trades then yes, money would come in in abundance..but this is not a luxury most alliances have.. You need a handful of guys to concentrate on mining/planet building etc. and you need a large chunk of guys in warbirds opping. This limits your income to on average about 3-4 traders that depending on the alliance will either be the same guys all game or function on a rotation to keep the xp factor even.
Slow game is an exception due to the gal layout, you can't compare it to a real game... when is the last multi-gal game you seen start out with a 10k 1.17 route ? :P
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wow i'm really split on this arguement, i think that there is too much cash in the slow game BUT if you reduce the cash i think it would just be asking for more gang-banging because the hunters would be more concerned about losing a ship
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yamo
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Blum wrote:
... My suggestion would rather be that high level ports stop trading low level goods making low level goods more rare and thereby creating better low level routes.
oohhh...i like this idea...
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yamo wrote:
Blum wrote:
... My suggestion would rather be that high level ports stop trading low level goods making low level goods more rare and thereby creating better low level routes.
oohhh...i like this idea...
Yeah I like it to. However IMO the way it should work is that, high level ports require low level goods to make high level goods. So they should stop selling low level goods. Which would make low level goods more valuable. There by making Going Good more profitable.
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Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:29 am Report this post Profile WWW
God_Imes
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2003 11:41 pm
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Siege wrote:
I think in general most players find it funner to op/don't have the time to sit online and hunt...That being said, having played in many alliances with guys like...Montana Mike, Galactic Grim Reaper, God Imes/God Justice, Dude Man, Rogue, Elvis Fett and even our beloved Ardbeg.. ( the bigger named hunters from the older generations ) I think some of our better hunters from this era are even a step up in their actual game knowledge as a whole and speed.
Guys like Orca, Smor (Chef), Sergei, Ghengis, Trigek (guess he was around back then to..) and LotuS really know how to find the kills.
Your probably right.
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